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Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0


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#1 Max66

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 07:03

Hello all,

 

I am quite new to OpenPLI: I migrated from DMM this summer and am very pleased with it but I have a few questions/suggestions:

 

I can't find a reference document which explains the difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0. I would expect 4.0 to be more recent with more recent Linux packages but since it is more recent, it may also not be as stable as 3.0. For example, I noticed that OpenSSL is version 0.9.8 in 3.0 and 1.0 in 4.0. What about other packages like Samba, Kernel, etc.? It would be very good if there was a comparison table like what you find on Distrowatch (including release notes, supported hardware, etc.). This would be very valuable for all OpenPLI users.

 

One thing I don't understand: In your comparison table, I see images for different hardware use different kernel version (2.6, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 3.8). Why not use the same?

 

I follow your Twitter feed every day, so I see all changes and commits. Do such changes apply to both version?

 

One other question: What is OpenPLI based on? I suppose you did not write this image from scratch! I know other distributions are based on DMM (Oozoon, Newnigma) or VU+ (BlackHole, VTI, VIX)

 

Last question, and this is probably linked to the previous: what is your dependency on hardware vendors? I see you recently stopped supporting Dreambox but I don't understand why if your image is not based on DMM. I have seen some forum posts which mentions you sometimes have to wait for drivers. Again, why do you need drivers? Don't you write your own? I am a bit "puzzled".

 

Else, keep up the good work, you have a fantastic image :)

 



Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #2 MiLo

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:00

One other question: What is OpenPLI based on? I suppose you did not write this image from scratch!

OpenPLi is based on the raw master branch of OpenEmbedded. In that sense, "write from scratch" is very close to the truth.

(Just to clarify: Sometimes images refer to "OE2.0" or something similar. These names are figments of the imagination of a few developers at DMM, and have no real relation to OpenEmbedded as a project, which does not use such version numbers at all.)

If you must know, the real current OpenEmbedded-core version is "57483db524cdf7c42af48bbaee163f5396294ac0".

Edited by MiLo, 24 October 2013 - 08:06.

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Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #3 WanWizard

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:03

Hello and welcome here, Max66.

 

Lots of questions in a single post, I'll try to addess them all. ;)

 

The image consists of two parts, the linux operating system, and the Enigma application.

 

The Enigma application is the same for all boxes, so from a user experience point of view there is no difference.

 

For every box, the manufacturer supplies the kernel drivers to provide dvbapi compatibility. These drivers are in binary format, and compiled for a specific kernel version. Drivers are written under NDA from the dvb chip manufacturer, no source is available. So the manufacturer dictates which Linux kernel we can use on any given box. Some regularly update them, some are stuck in the past and haven't been updated in ages. These differences come to light when you need OS support, for example for USB devices, for which newer = better.

 

The difference between OpenPLi 3 and 4 is purely a technical one, related to the build process. The Enigma part of both is the same, so from a users point of view there is no difference. We only maintain the latest version for a box, so you will see changes in 4 that are not implemented for 3. The tweets are always based on the current git development branch. Documenting everything for every box is a daunting task, for which we unfortunately don't have the manpower.

 

An OpenPLi image runs on our own version (distro) of the OpenEmbedded Linux OS. It can not be compared with other (non-OpenPLi-based) images, where you sometimes see references like OE1.6 or OE2.0.  Our Enigma is a fork of the original version, as released to open source by Dream Multimedia many years ago. Since then, we maintain our own version, in contrast to a lot of other images, that simply run a copy of DMM's image, with a new skin and some additional plugins.

 

The dependency you describe is mainly linked to drivers. As said before, those are supplied in binary format, and define the interface between Enigma and the hardware. The specs of the chipset are a closed guarded secret, and supplied to the manufacturer under NDA. So writing our own drivers would be extremely difficult, and require a lot of reverse engineering. If you maintain an image for lots of different manufacturers, standardization is very important. If everyone makes their own decisions, you'll end up with code littered with "IF #thisbox THEN dosomethingspecial", which if you have to maintain 20+ types will quickly become a mess and unmanageble. So we try to stay in contact with the manufacturers to try to make the interface as standard as possible.

 

In the past, this was never a problem with DMM. But since the market has been flooded with competitors, and DMM as a result tried to get them of the market by changing their license to a closed source one, all contact has dried up. As a result, our and their version drifted further and further apart, which made it increasingly difficult for us to support them without lots of exceptions in the code. An other issue is the kernel, that, as you noticed, it stuck in the past, leading to all sorts of issues.

 

Because of all this, and the fact that users will come here asking for support, has led to the descision to drop the support. We simply don't have the manpower, nor the time, to provide that anymore.


Currently in use: VU+ Duo 4K (2xFBC S2), VU+ Solo 4K (1xFBC S2), uClan Usytm 4K Pro (S2+T2), Octagon SF8008 (S2+T2), Zgemma H9.2H (S2+T2)

Due to my bad health, I will not be very active at times and may be slow to respond. I will not read the forum or PM on a regular basis.

Many answers to your question can be found in our new and improved wiki.


Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #4 Rob van der Does

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:10

One other question: What is OpenPLI based on? I suppose you did not write this image from scratch! I know other distributions are based on DMM (Oozoon, Newnigma) or VU+ (BlackHole, VTI, VIX)

Oops .... ViX is PLi-based, not VU-based.

Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #5 MiLo

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:14

One thing I don't understand: In your comparison table, I see images for different hardware use different kernel version (2.6, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 3.8). Why not use the same?
... 
Last question, and this is probably linked to the previous: what is your dependency on hardware vendors? I see you recently stopped supporting Dreambox but I don't understand why if your image is not based on DMM. I have seen some forum posts which mentions you sometimes have to wait for drivers. Again, why do you need drivers? Don't you write your own? I am a bit "puzzled".

Broadcom manufactures the chips that power these boxes. There are not datasheets nor any opensource drivers available for these chips. The manufacturers had to sell their souls to Broadcom, eh, I mean, sign an NDA, to get that information and write drivers for these chips which they are not allowed to disclose.
So that results in closed-source drivers for all current boxes, without exception.

The drivers are "tied" to a certain kernel version. So we are stuck with the kernel version that the vendor happens to support. We would of course just want to use only the latest version of the kernel, but that cannot happen because we're dependent on the manufacturers to deliver drivers. DMM refused to update the drivers for the older boxes like the 800 and 7025, hence these are stuck on ancient 2.6.18 or even 2.6.12 kernels.

This all sounds silly and wasteful. And it is. Most of these boxes even use the same chips. But that's how Broadcom wants it.
Real musicians never die - they just decompose

Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #6 Max66

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:49

Excellent, thank you very much for this information

 

One question about this quote in your reply. When you say:

The difference between OpenPLi 3 and 4 is purely a technical one, related to the build process. The Enigma part of both is the same, so from a users point of view there is no difference. We only maintain the latest version for a box, so you will see changes in 4 that are not implemented for 3. The tweets are always based on the current git development branch. Documenting everything for every box is a daunting task, for which we unfortunately don't have the manpower.

 

I am running 3.0 and when I check for updates, I get them almost every day. If you say you only maintain the latest version for a box, in my case a DM8000, why am I getting updates if I'm not running 4.0 and what are those updates, the git commits?



Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #7 WanWizard

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:59

OpenPLi 3 and 4 share the same Enigma development tree, so as long as the build server produces new nightly images for 3, it will pickup changes in that tree too.

 

But 3 and 4 run on a different version of OpenEmbedded, and for that only 4 is supported. Which is why you will see for example the OpenSSL upgrade from 0.9.8 to 1.0 only on 4, and not on 3. Unless we decide to backport a change.


Currently in use: VU+ Duo 4K (2xFBC S2), VU+ Solo 4K (1xFBC S2), uClan Usytm 4K Pro (S2+T2), Octagon SF8008 (S2+T2), Zgemma H9.2H (S2+T2)

Due to my bad health, I will not be very active at times and may be slow to respond. I will not read the forum or PM on a regular basis.

Many answers to your question can be found in our new and improved wiki.


Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #8 Max66

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 13:21

Thank you all for your replies.

 

I migrated from 3.0 to 4.0 yesterday and everything seems fine. First things I noticed:

> Boot seems to take a bit longer. At least, there is a period when my DM8000 does not show any sign of activity (power button or OLED screen) after the ugly Dreambox logo appears.

> Access to Media files & Recording now seems to work correctly. On 3.0, when I pressed <PVR>, the folders appeared quickly but the files took a very long time to show up


Edited by Max66, 28 October 2013 - 13:21.


Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #9 jajest

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:43

he difference between OpenPLi 3 and 4 is purely a technical one, related to the build process. The Enigma part of both is the same, so from a users point of view there is no difference. 

 

 

So ... why should I change then from 3.0 to 4.0 if there's no user difference ? Can somebody give me a good reason ?

 

thank you.

 

marc



Re: Difference between OpenPLI 3.0 and 4.0 #10 hemertje

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:56

yes, we stopped with maintaining OpenPLi 3


on the Glassfibre 1GB DVB-C...



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